Paul Giannamore: When I can look at those financial statements, I can compare it in general to the industry, I can compare it to other companies, even outside the industry. I can look for aberrations in numbers. You can learn a lot about a business by looking at a result, looking at a number, and saying, “What is going on here?” It's amazing the types of things you'll learn.
Patrick Baldwin: Paul, you look like a happy man. Is that because the earning season starts?
Paul Giannamore: It is.
Patrick Baldwin: Look at that, I’ve never seen your teeth like that.
Paul Giannamore: Super excited. The CPI print came in so all the speculative mania, narrative, and nonsense will be out of the way and economic gravity will begin to set in. Yes, I am excited.
Patrick Baldwin: We learned to look for the bubble.
Paul Giannamore: It was a big one. Look at the US equity markets.
Patrick Baldwin: This is something that’s been a few months in the making and I said, “Are revenue plateaus a figment of my imagination?” I look back and it's been years now but there were certain marks in which it took heaven and earth to get through certain levels. Is it just me or is this happening across the board?
Seth Garber: The more companies we look at, the more we see it. It's a real thing, Patrick.
Patrick Baldwin: I don't know what the numbers are out there so I'm just throwing this out. It seemed $550,000 or $600,000 was one and then $2 million like $1.8 million and $1.9 million. Those are the two that stick out. We have not discussed this so I wanted to make sure that you did not influence those numbers I'm throwing out there. It is a few years removed now. I feel like those are plateaus that we hit and we're like, “What's it going to take?” Those are probably panic calls we made to Paul and said, “Paul, what do we do? Why are we stuck?”
Paul Giannamore: I said, “You guys sucked.”
Patrick Baldwin: That was enough motivation to keep going. We're like, “Let's go.”
Paul Giannamore: Problem solved.
Patrick Baldwin: It's that kind of coach that we need in our lives, it’s like, “You suck.”
Paul Giannamore: Sometimes people need to hear the truth, Patrick.
Patrick Baldwin: You kept saying, “The juice is worth the squeeze. Keep going.”
Paul Giannamore: I did. It feels like there are plateaus, for sure. You see them at a couple of million bucks and you see them again at $5 million. I've never seen any empirical data about it but it appears that way.
Patrick Baldwin: Is it as simple as saying, “Who's my first hire?” I feel like I can grow this one-man show so much and then it’s like, “Who's my first hire?” That's naturally the first revenue plateau.
Seth Garber: I think so. It's a huge question because it's scary. You guys have been there. We were there. You're looking at your bank account. You're looking at your route. You're trying to figure out at what point are you willing to give up some of your personal income in order to bring on somebody. You don't have any way to train them, you don't have any way to help them out. You're not sure what to do. It's a super scary step for an individual operator to start thinking about that.
Patrick Baldwin: Who's the first hire? You go from head cook and bottle washer to hiring an admin. I see it all the time, “Hire an admin. Do I hire an office person or do I hire a salesperson?” Do you look at the operator and say, “What's your strength?” Is that the simple equation? “What are you best at?” Then hiring your weakness.
Seth Garber: If you think about it, we're all in these social groups and we see all the stuff that people ask. This question gets asked all the time, “Who do you hire first?” I have seen owner-operators who hire a technician and it's the greatest decision of their life. The one place where I always seem to see failure is when that first hire is a part-time person versus a full-time person. That seems to be a failure point for companies.
Someone says, “I want to hire a part-time technician.” I always say hire them full-time or build your revenue up high enough or I'm going to hire a part-time admin person and I'm like, “If you need them part-time, let's get them full-time and start to focus on growing your business.” Those are different things. There are a lot of options there. Being an owner-operator, if your skillset is sales, why would you not hire an office person? Why would you not hire a technician?
Patrick Baldwin: Seth, that's the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that if you can afford a part-time, stretch yourself a little bit more, and make the full-time hire. What you're saying is hire to your weakness, upgraded sales, and find something different than sales, or vice versa. You're saying to go ahead and make the investment and get a full-time person on board.
Seth Garber: If I'm an individual owner or an individual operator, I probably wouldn't hire my first person until I've got a full route. This way, I can afford the next person. When I say full route, I like to see individual operators running in that $220,000 revenue, $20,000 a month. I know operators who've ran up to $35,000 a month on their own before they hire somebody. You have to stretch and you've got to get that full-time person and bite the bullet. From my perspective, if you're going to hire the first one, you're taking a step and saying, “I'm committing to growing my company to the next level.” If you take somebody part-time, what are you doing?
Patrick Baldwin: I don't know though, is it technician, is it admin, or it depends?
Seth Garber: It depends. One of the things that I see quite a bit is that if someone goes and hires a technician and they're a solo operator, they tend to hire somebody like them. You hit the nail on the head when you said you got to hire to that weakness, that makes a lot of logical sense. If you're good administratively and you can manage your business from your truck, maybe a technician makes sense. If you're not good administratively and you're not good at managing your business from your truck, maybe hire an admin, it makes a lot more logical sense.
Patrick Baldwin: You've got one admin and one tech in place at this point. You're still probably going to max out around $250,000 or $300,000 at the end of the day in revenue. From there, you could begin to stack on technicians and not necessarily increase your admin support. That probably looks like maybe four techs and you're doing $700,000 or $800,000. If you've routed well, you have a lot of recurring business.
Seth Garber: $700,000 or $800,000 with four techs is where most people tend to get stuck. I like to see four techs at $1 million for one admin. I do think that hits our next benchmark, that $700,000 or $650,000 mark. That's probably our next big benchmark, it's hard to push through.
Patrick Baldwin: Why do people stall at that number?
Seth Garber: The first thing I immediately think about is you've got a pretty big responsibility now. As an owner, you've got a couple of people that you're responsible for their lives, you're starting to deal with some basics of HR issues, and you're balancing time management and where should you spend your time. Also, as an owner, if you're $600,000 or $700,000, you're making a pretty good income at this point too. It's a big balance of how hard you push through. That drives it. You're starting to deal with things like managing your P&L, which is hard. You're starting to do a lot of these things that are a lot more difficult. There are a lot of strategies to push through it. What are your thoughts, Patrick?
Patrick Baldwin: I wonder if it takes something radically different in the business, something like, “I've never had a full-time salesperson and I have to make that investment,” or, “I've done a lot of word-of-mouth advertising because I've grown up in the community and I've been able to survive on 2%, 3%, 4%, or 5% marketing ad spend. Now, I need to do something like 15% or 20% to break through to the next level.”
Maybe they've got to replace themselves in the business. Whatever role that they're fulfilling, if that's office manager, branch manager, or service manager, wearing all those hats and the admin if they've got to replace themselves in that way. Hopefully, by then, maybe they're a full-time technician. Some people enjoy that, that's how they're wired, “I want to be in the field. Leave me alone. I don't want to be the CEO. I don't want to run the business. I love pest control. I love being with the customers. Give me my route and let me go.” That's fine but they've got to find the right person and make that investment to go to the next level. That's what I think.
Seth Garber: When we go through it and teach some of these methodologies, there are five key components. One of the key components that scream at me as you're saying it is you're going, “What is it? What is this extreme thing that we need to do?” It's interesting because one of the components that we talk about a lot at this size is that you have to minimize your guessing and we tie it into benchmarking.
We say that you shouldn't have to guess what the right thing is. What we want to think about is, what are your benchmarks that drive the result? When are the 1 or 2 most powerful things you can do that you can stay focused on for a long enough period of time in order to push through? To your point, if it's marketing, you increase your budget. If it's simply organization, time management, or routing, if someone stays focused on 1 or 2 of those things for a long enough period of time, they push through. That's the way we tend to see it happen.
If you think about putting yourself in the shoes of an operator who's got, let's call, four guys and an administrator, they're doing $750,000 or maybe a little less or a little more. A real level of efficiency puts these guys at probably $1 million to $1.2 million. If they're pumping, they're at $1 million or $1.2 million with the same staff. The labor is going to be a little higher.
When I start to think about benchmarks, we start to think about things like, “Let's start at the top.” We start to think about, “What's our total production per route?” Our total production per route is probably $15,000, $16,000, or $17,000. We have a month on one of these routes where we do a bunch of extra services and now it's $23,000 but all the rest are $15,000 and $16,000. We become accustomed to thinking that $15,000 and $16,000 are good and that's where we should be.
The reality is if we think about that number specifically and we can increase that number and take on more customers and we accept the fact that we're not as efficient as we possibly can, we have a chance to move the needle. As an operator, I'm looking at my business and I'm looking at my routes driving around and I'm like, “We're working my guys hard. They're doing $15,000 and $16,000 and that's what I did. That's what was required of me.”
The reality is that they can increase that pretty substantially by creating deeper route efficiency, tracking things like revenue per mile, and tracking some of these critical benchmarks. Whereas if they focus simply on that, now they can increase their revenue. If they feel comfortable there, now they're ready to increase their marketing spend on different things and get good.
Patrick Baldwin: What I'm hearing you say is you could keep the same personnel in place and you could go from $750,000 to $1 million to $1.2 million with the same staffing.
Seth Garber: If we use the model that it's 4 technicians, 1 owner, and an administrator, at that operation, a level of efficiency could go to $1.1 million or $1.2 million in today's market, especially with the pricing and stuff that's out there today.
Patrick Baldwin: Is this the point where they need to outsource their marketing and advertising?
Seth Garber: Marketing is a big decision at this point because if you think about your business and you go take a look at industry numbers, people say you could spend up to 10% of your revenue on marketing. I like to challenge companies to say that you should outsource your marketing at this point. However, prior to outsourcing your marketing at this point, you have to become a basic subject matter expert at those marketing spends. If not, you don't have enough money to play in the big marketing world.
You have to be careful where this spend happens. The thing that I always like to put in front of companies is they're going $500,000, then $700,000, and then $1 million. If they want to keep themselves efficient, that’s their education where they have to educate themselves on what real marketing is and not necessarily trust somebody because they said, “We know what to do.” I would already be outsourcing my marketing by this point, at least for lead generation.
Patrick Baldwin: That's where at one point was this $650,000 or $750,000 mark that we got stuck at and the next one was $1.8 million and $1.9 million. Why is that?
Seth Garber: I can only speak from the knowledge we have of working with these clients. Let's call it $1.8 million or $1.9 million, let's call it $1.6 million or $1.7 million, somewhere in that ballpark. Now we have to remember that the business is doubled. Our business is doubled from a management perspective. We're now going from, let's say, arguably managing four technicians and an office person to where we've probably made hiring decisions and now we have probably two office people. We've probably overhired an additional technician.
All of a sudden, our profitability as an owner probably drops a little bit because we're overstaffed. That's a normal thing. We're not sure who to hire next. We're relying on the same things that we did when we were a $700,000 company to push through to $1 million. We haven't advanced our business yet. Now we've got a lot more families to feed and a lot more HR issues to deal with. Our marketing agencies are providing leads the same way they were before.
We're scared to make a bigger investment. I would tell you that what happened to you guys is probably right along there. I always say that the most difficult number to get to, after your first technician, is getting to $1 million. Everyone gets stuck at $650,000 to $700,000. The next big number is to get to $2.5 million. In order to get to $2.5 million, it’s very hard. There are a lot of ways to push through there as well.
Patrick Baldwin: Paul, surely, me and Bobby weren't the only ones that called you frustrated by hitting a wall. Help us get through. What does that conversation sound like aside from the one that you had with me and Bobby a couple of times? We're like, “Help.” Did we pull the eject button? We used to call it the nuclear option, that was our language, internally, at least between me and Bob. What do we do? What do you even say?
Paul Giannamore: What I often do is look at a fact pattern on paper. When people say, “We're not growing,” I first look at the P&L to determine whether or not that's the case because everyone has a different opinion as to what growth is. For some people, it's 1% or 2% a year. For other people, it's like, “If I'm not doing 25% brand, I'm not growing.” Let's define what growth is. In 2023, we have to define what growth is in real terms as opposed to nominal terms when price increases can be 80% of companies’ growth right now, at least in nominal terms.
I tend to look at financial statements. I look at things like growth rates. I look at things like gross margin. If the gross margin of the business isn't great, my first thought is that the company doesn't even know what gross margin is, the cost of control, and is not even doing the financial statements. That's usually the most logical explanation. Provided the financial statements are somewhere near the gap, I look and say, “Gross margins might be high or might be low.”
If the gross margins are low, then I say, “What's wrong? Do we have a pricing issue? What are we charging for our services?” You always want to be at the median of the market or better. Sometimes that's the issue, “We're not charging enough.” It's common for companies that start out. No one knows you and you tend to feel like you have to compete on price, which I don't believe is ever the case but a lot of people do believe that's the case, “I got to compete on the price.” A lot of smaller companies have that problem.
Now, as I'm looking through the P&L, I say, “The pricing is good. The gross margin is low. What else is going on here?” The question that I ask a million times is I look at a result and I say, “What is going on here?” I try to figure that out, “If it's not the pricing, what about density? Let's take a look at your service map. Where the heck are you? What are we servicing here?” You ask a myriad of different questions.
If you go through that exercise, in my mind, one of the most important things that an owner and operator of a pest control business can do at the bare minimum on an annual basis but ideally on a monthly or quarterly basis is to make sure that their financial statements are set up in a way that at bare minimum approximates gap. We know that it's following standard accounting principles. When I can look at those financial statements, I can compare them in general to the industry. I can compare it to other companies, even outside the industry. I can look for aberrations in numbers.
You can learn a lot about a business by looking at a result, looking at a number, and saying, “What is going on here?” Try to unpack that number into the cause-and-effect relationships behind it. It's an important exercise and it's one of the things that I've done very often. You don't have to hire Potomac to do this. I tell this to so many clients, “Look at your damn numbers and ask, ‘What's going on here?’” It's amazing the types of things you'll learn. You don't need a management consultant, you don't need anything. All you need to do is sit down and think about the cause and effect behind your numbers. That's all I have to say in this conversation of plateaus.
Patrick Baldwin: Bob and I would reiterate to ourselves the facts of our feelings. Paul, you said that sometimes it feels like we're not growing. You might look at numbers and say, “For crying out loud, you're growing 20% of your top line. Growth isn’t the problem, at least at the top line, it's somewhere else.” Sometimes I'll wonder if it's a mental block, like, “We can't see the forest for the trees. Forgive the cliché but we don't understand what it takes to get to the next level.” By beginning to isolate that and ask yourself those questions, you realize there is an issue and you've got to do something different to continue to grow.
Paul Giannamore: Correct.
Patrick Baldwin: I wonder how often are you, at least in isolation and looking at your own business, do you look at that and say, “Where do we need to go? Where do we need to make the next hire? What's the next marketing campaign?” I'm wondering how often should you do that and look and plan that out.
Paul Giannamore: I'm going to give you an example. We have a client that is under exclusivity with an acquirer right now and it's a business that's right in the meaty part of the bell curve in the pest control space, one of those $5 million businesses. It's a company that came to us through a referral pre-pandemic. We put together the materials and went out to market and then COVID hit so everything stopped. Of course, we all know that the markets raced at the end of 2020 and into 2021 and we had a lot of opportunities to sell the business.
We took a step back and said, “We identified a million different things that you could be doing.” The owner said, “This was the most valuable experience I've ever gone through because I've never gone through these numbers with anyone that knows anything. I've never thought about my business looking at it in this light.” We went through that exercise. Fast forward to 2023, we took the business back out to market.
In conversations we'd been having with him, he's like, “I was not having fun running the business. It was Groundhog Day for me year after year. We made a decent living but I didn't realize how much money I was leaving on the table.” Here's what he did, we started with revenue. We looked at pricing and we looked at route density. For the things that were on the periphery, I said, “Shut them down.” “I can't. We've had these clients for a long time.”
I'm like, “You're losing money. You're running a charity or business, what do you want to do?” I said, “Cancel them. Refer them off. Send those accounts to somebody else. Sell them for $0.20 on the dollar. Get rid of them. Unclutter your life with BS. Get rid of all the BS.” We raised prices. We got rid of accounts on the periphery. From there, we went down the P&L, we looked at every aspect of gross margin, and we looked at auto, “What are we doing?” We finance this and do that. We revamp the leasing program. We went and we looked at new insurance. We went out for competitive bids.
We continued to go down the P&L and we got to the labor line and direct labor. “What are we doing here? We got a 79-year-old dude who is working full-time and is generating less revenue for you than you're paying him in payroll. He's been with you for a long time and I get that. If you want to run a charity, fire him and then give him some tax-deductible gift in some way, shape, or form. Make a donation, have him start a non-profit, and you can pay him outside of the company.” We looked at direct labor and we called the folks that were inefficient on direct labor.
We then continued to go down the line and then we went into the SG&A cost structure and we looked at salaries for the office folks. What are these guys doing? How are we measuring this? It’s like, “She's getting a salary of $40,000 a year. What is she doing? How are we measuring that?” You go down the list and you say, “What is the result? What's going on behind the scenes? What's going on here? What are we getting? What are we paying?” He has doubled his profitability over the period of two years.
Let's put that in context though for everyone in a second. If you own a $5 million pest control business, I truly believe if done correctly, you should be at 25% adjusted EBITDA. If you're doing a great job, you can hit 30%. You get solid marks from me if you're at a clean 25%. Let's do the math. 25% of 5 million, PB? You're the mathematician here. What is that?
Patrick Baldwin: 1.25 million.
Paul Giannamore: He should be making $1.25 million on a pre-tax basis per annum and he was not making that. He was making a little bit less than $600,000. I'm not a mathematician but I realized he more than doubled it. He had $500,000 and some odd a year than he was making in that business. That's a great income for anyone by any objective standard, $500,000 a year. Now he does over $1 million in change.
Of course, the value of the business is to potentially hire or acquire. We've done all the hard work. He's having fun with it. In my mind, forget the reason for a plateau. Forget all of this. What everyone has to say, for my simple little brain, I say, “I'm going to plateau. Let me gather my facts. Let me scrutinize them. Let me see what changes I can make and see if I can bust out of a plateau.
Patrick Baldwin: I'm glad you picked on someone other than Fat Pat for once and you have another case study here.
Paul Giannamore: Don't worry, I'll see you in Tampa. I have plenty of opportunities.
Patrick Baldwin: That's the only reason you're coming to Tampa, to harass me. You went through this line by line and you worked pricing and route density. Are there certain things that stuck out that moved the needle from him clearing $500,000 to $1.2 million?
Paul Giannamore: Yeah. There were a few things that moved the needle and one was certainly pricing. This isn't just all the rigamarole you've heard in the last two years with this inflation and pricing. His pricing was low. Inflation or no inflation, it needed to come up. The other big one was he had a lot of accounts on the periphery. They were coming to a big geography and when you look at it, you say, “Let's do a density map.” You could see 95% of his revenue is coming from here but then 20% of his work is coming from around there.
I don't even suggest that people go into costing out accounts because, Patrick, as you said, the juice might not be worth the squeeze on that. You can almost use common sense, like, “I'm getting $90 for this stop and I'm driving 45 minutes way out this way.” Get rid of it. Pricing was huge and getting rid of that.
I know everyone in recent years is like, “I can't get enough people. If I only had more people, I could do more production.” Those days are changing quickly and it's going to be very soon and I see it every single day now. Most pest control companies have more people than they need given their growth rate. If you want to grow this thing at 20% a year, you're going to need some people and you're going to need them lickety-split. Most of you guys are not doing it 20% per year and you're overstaffed.
If you think about it, he wants to grow faster. I found somebody that makes $40,000 a year and another one that makes $52,000 a year. I could have one $70,000-a-year employee replace three. Now I've got an extra $50,000 per year. What could I do with $50,000 from a marketing perspective? Probably a lot. I suggest at bare minimum you do an annual review of vendors in all services.
Personally, how many of these stupid recurring subscriptions do you have that you probably should lease once a year? You’d be like, “What trial did I sign up for and I'm still paying for it?” In my household, I realized my wife and I each have a Netflix subscription. We travel a lot but why do we need two Netflix?
You can certainly go through the services that your company is buying and your insurance and all that stuff and renegotiate things and try to shop. I feel like the lower on the P&L you get, the less impact. Those things that are up high like direct labor, pricing, and route density, that's where you make your money.
Seth Garber: I agree with Paul.
Patrick Baldwin: That's the smartest thing anyone's ever said on the show.
Seth Garber: I agree.
Paul Giannamore: That's a wrap.
Seth Garber: That was fun guys. Even route density, to his point, is such a common thing you see. I'll take a step even a little more granular for people to think about it, a simple way to see it. If you look at your route production, your average value per stop, and I'm going to throw a number out there. If that route production is sub $20,000, your average value per stop is under the median of your market and you have overtime on your technician, you have a routing issue. It comes out clear as day. Patrick, you heard the story where we had to address this with a customer, a fairly large company. By simply rerouting the business because we identified too much overtime with the route, they had a $25,000 or $30,000-month savings in labor.
Patrick Baldwin: In payroll and plus the fuel savings. Overtime is a foreign language to me because everyone knows I'm a production guy.
Paul Giannamore: That's true.
Patrick Baldwin: Thank you very much.
Seth Garber: Paul wrapped up revenue plateaus for us at about a six-minute little talk there.
Patrick Baldwin: I love it. Seth, you did mention five key components. I heard one about minimized guessing and doing this benchmarking exercise. What is step one when someone's like, “Help me grow?”
Seth Garber: I'm going to simplify this whole thing. If we're going to get through any revenue plateau and we want to look at it from a macro standpoint, the first thing I like to do is I like to look at an existing organizational chart. What is our company look like today? It’s very simple. After that, I like to decide where we're going to go. Let’s say we're $1 million and we want to go to $3 million. I'm going to define what that $3 million org chart looks like, that's what I'm going to do.
After I do that, I'm going to take the time and I'm going to go develop the way that I'm going to measure every role within the organization, every single role. I’m then going to go teach my leaders how we're going to manage our teams to these metrics. I'm going to determine exactly how many customers I need to generate to get through it and determine my customer acquisition cost. Take my customer acquisition cost and decide on exactly what right type of customer I want to get to and what my sales process is going to be. That's how I'm going to do it.
If we're sitting at $1 million dollars and we want to go to $3 million, you define that, you take a look at your numbers, you can determine how many new customers you need minus your churn, and then you can decide how you're going to get them. If you're a $5 million company and you want to go to $10 million, you can do the same thing. From there, now you're just working on leadership skills, management skills, and deep accountability. That's how I would look at it.
Patrick Baldwin: I never would've guessed that building out an org chart is step number one.
Seth Garber: These processes are things we've developed over time. You hear Paul give a brilliant way of handling this, looking at the P&L, and going step by step. In the scenario that he described, he's educating that customer while he is going through it. He has the time to educate him and work with them.
For some people, sometimes it's one thing to be able to see it and visualize where you're going. If you can truly visualize it, then you have the time to learn some of the more technical components like Paul described in order to accelerate your business. That's the way I think about it. I think about when we built our company and the reality was I didn't have an understanding of a P&L. I just wanted to sell more and the rest of it's going to wash out.
Fortunately, I had a partner that was good and he kept us from not washing it all out but becoming profitable. For a lot of operators, understanding their P&L makes a critical decision. Understanding their gross margin is critical. Sometimes being able to draw a picture on the wall of where you are and where you're going to go and start to understand how you're going to get there probably moves the needle through a lot of these. Maybe I oversimplified it because it's a lot more difficult than that.
Patrick Baldwin: At least there's a roadmap. I know the hard part is executing it but at least they can begin to see where they are, visualize what the future looks like, and then start filling those roles. It was great.
Seth Garber: That's super kind of you. As I heard Paul describe the way that he valued that company, it triggered me to go, “I'm going to start that this week.” I'm going to dive way deep into all these numbers again for some of the companies that we look at and start to identify how much money we can potentially save them on the top line because we always think about growth.
Patrick Baldwin: I know your numbers speak for yourself. The clients that you work with have big numbers, growth numbers. You know what you're talking about.
Seth Garber: Maybe, we'll see. That‘s nice of you.
Patrick Baldwin: Gents, we’ll be hand-rolling cigars and we're getting matching tattoos. We're eating sushi. What else is in the works?
Seth Garber: There's a lot coming. You're getting a tattoo and Paul and I are going to watch. I'm going to pay for it just to be a nice guy.
Patrick Baldwin: I thought you were going to hold me down and then Paul is going to give me the tattoo.
Paul Giannamore: Fat Pat, are you going to get a tattoo? Really just get this done or what?
Patrick Baldwin: Let's get it done.
Seth Garber: We've got some big guys coming, Paul. Fat Pat doesn't know this but we've got some big guys that are coming that run awesome companies. There'd be nothing greater than for me to walk out of power knowing that we did a pretty good job but also knowing that Fat Pat followed through with this tattoo.
Paul Giannamore: Great.
Patrick Baldwin: Fat Pat's tat. Guys, see you in Tampa.
Seth Garber: See you, man.
Paul Giannamore: See you, guys.
Dylan Seals: I want to remind you right now to go ahead and subscribe to The Boardroom Buzz. We've got some incredible episodes coming up that you're not going to want to miss. Also, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please go to the Apple Podcast app and leave us a short review, we'd love to hear from you. Thanks so much again for reading and we'll see you next episode.
Apple Podcast – The Boardroom Buzz